ALL CREDIT OF THIS GOES TO MADIS KUKK AKA THE FUCKING MAN.
So I was on tumblr cruising around and seen this. Kids come into freestyle depot where I work and we almost never do HIC. One because SCS has always been better (Well I think so) and HIC is just a pain in the ass. Some kids say its lighter because your only using a dub clamp instead of a SCS. But thats bullshit and Madis proves it. SCS for lyfe.
A talk about HIC VS. SCS with Madis...
A friend of mine, Arco, said that I’m a nolifer, but here goes nothing:
since I recently received my next test-run of wees with diffirent crossbars and steertubes (oversized and standard-sized), I’ve wanted to test one of the most wide-spread myths of scooter tech:
HYPOTHESIS:
using standard-sized bars with SCS is lighter than oversized bars with HIC.
__________________________________________
RESEARCH MATERIAL:
[Bars]
* Standard-sized WEE bars, 24x22 minus 1.5” for SCS,
.065” crossbar, raw: 1105g (2lb 7oz)
* Oversized WEE bars, 24x22, full-height (for HIC),
.065” crossbar, raw: 1220g (2lb 11oz)
[SCS]
* Tilt SCS (w/o adapter): 202g (7.1 oz)
* Tilt SCS “LT”-version: 176g (6.2 oz)
* Phoenix Smooth SCS: 160g (5.6 oz)
[HIC adapters]
* aluminium 54mm HIC adapter by TSI: 20g (0.7 oz)
* crmo4130 44mm homemade HIC adapter: 48g (1.7 oz)
* crmo4130 61mm homemade HIC adapter: 66g (2.3 oz)
[Clamps for oversized bars]
* Proto Half Knuckle: 120g (4.2 oz)
* District doubleclamp: 66g (2.3 oz)
[Other shit]
* FSA topcap with 35mm compressionbolt: ~16g (0.6 oz)
* 104mm oversized steertube piece: 126g (4.4 oz)
THUS THROUGH CROSS MULTIPLICATION
a 1.5” / 38mm piece would weigh 46g (1.6 oz)
___________________________________________
ASSEMBLING:
Now, we put some front-end setups together:
___________________________________________
#1 /// Standard-sized bars with SCS
+ Standard-sized bars, 24x22 minus 1.5” for SCS,
+ Phoenix Smooth SCS with aftermarket 25mm bolts,
+ FSA topcap + compressionbolt
= 1282g (2lb (13.2oz)
#2 /// Oversized bars with HIC (alu HIC adapter)
+ Oversized bars, 24x22 full-height for HIC
+ TSI’s HIC adapter, 54mm, aluminium,
+ FSA topcap + compressionbolt
+ Proto Half Knuckle,
cause half knux are the best (and sorry Helmeri,
but fuck district clamps ‘cause their threads strip).
= 1376g (3lb 0.5oz)
#3 /// Oversized bars with HIC (crmo4130 HIC adapter)
Same shit as in #2 but instead
of TSI’s aluminium adapter there’s
the homemade 44mm chrmo4130 HIC adapter.
= 1404g (3lb 1.5oz)
#4 /// Oversized with SCS (!!!)
+ Oversized bars 24x22, raw
+ minus 1.5” for SCS (1220g - 46g = 1174g)
+ Tilt SCS (1 3/8” compatible; without adapter)
+ FSA topcap + compressionbolt
= 1392g (3lb 1.1oz)
The oversized bars with SCS (#4) weight lies between #2 and #3.
______________________________________________________
CONCLUSION:
So you see, not only having standard-sized bars with SCS is lighter than having oversized bars with HIC, but even oversized bars with SCS are basicly in the same weight ratio as oversized bars w/ HIC systems based on Half Knuckles. HIC bars usually have a notch at the bottom of the bars (HIC, ICS and stock bars usually tend to crack at the bottom if a fair amount of gnarliness is applied, eventually happens to every bar that has a notch) and SCS clamps eliminate the notch-cracking issue. Thus: if you’re choosing between SCS and HIC compressions, choose SCS and your bars will last a ton longer, for-fucking-ever.
The only thing you SHOULD choose between is that either if you’re using a standard-sized tube or an oversized bar, because oversized bars (since they are a heavier by 6%) may help with the weight-ratio by distributing the overall weight of your scooter if you’re using a heavier deck (such as a Stan Smirnoff sig. deck) or whatever, depending on your taste.
BOTTOM LINE:
research proves that even if you’re using oversized bars, you should choose SCS instead of HIC cause’ the weight diffirence is slim-to-none and because SCS eliminates the cracking issue due to notches.
-mk
I think another point to be had, is that SCS just looks god awful. It's too much clamp, even Baby SCS. I can see you guys being partial to Andrews design, and that's okay. But honestly, I've ran both SCS and Baby SCS, and it NEVER stayed tight. I've been running HIC for awhile now and haven't ever had it come loose on me. Where my Baby SCS and SCS I was tightening every few hours. And everything was installed correctly, the same way as it was with my HIC. I love HIC, and always will.
ReplyDeleteIt does not look ugly at all and my bars never come loose hic is too skech and weak
DeleteWhelp, looks like it's finally time to get new bars and a Phoenix SCS, since I'm a weight weeny.
ReplyDeleteyeah, ive never understood the hic is light argument. but thats not my reason for using hic. i find hic a whole heap easier. no worries with cutting down forks or spacers, a buttload cheaper and much less likeley to strip bolts. also, i have never cracked any bars at the slit. totally respect madis' point and the maths is perfect :) but im gonna stick with hic for now
ReplyDeleteI love my scs and it never comes loose
ReplyDeleteI'd like to add a few things. One. I'm just gonna state out that I did not made that "HIC sucks" picture. I actually think that HIC is a neat simple system. But hold your horses.
ReplyDeleteTwo.
I also think that HIC is easy to use or install, also a little clamp does look better than a bigger 4-bolt clamp. But it is impractical.
As a shop owner I've came across dozens and dozens of bars (Districts, MGP bars, TSI Scepters, you name it) that have been snapped at the bottom, they start cracking from the slit and eventually get snapped. BOTH standard-sized and oversized bars. That's in Estonia. Since European sales laws are a little diffirent than in the US, it allows the clients to come back to the reseller which is why I get shit feedback on standard/oversized bars that have started cracking or that have snapped at the slit.
Now since I've never seen ANY large scale production made handlebars cracking because they were in an SCS, this puts SCS higher up in the list. SCS essentially solves a problem we never should have had (like when companies started losing folding mechanisms and started making just one-piece decks; shoutout to TSI!).
Three.
This little "research" thing was to prove that standard-sized bars with SCS is lither than oversized bars with HIC and a clamp. Not only it did prove that, but I also found that using a Tilt SCS with even oversized crmo4130 bars is at the same weight range as oversized bars with HIC (and it only basicly depends on the clamp or the adapter, deciding if it's gonna be half an ounce lighter or heavier than the oversized+SCS version of it. Again, why go HIC with notches if you can eliminate a problem.
Four.
The looks. God damnit. I know this shit. I know bars look better with a half knuckle or with a Tilt double-clamp (or what ever you fancy). I get that. It's STILL impractical because of the slit/notch factor. Get over.
That's why I use Phoenix Smooth SCS because that thing looks just the best out of all SCS kits, but THAT'S JUST MY OPINION. If Andrew got made some lighter and less burly clamps, I'd rock those just to rep the brand that designed SCS kits in the first place, but they show a very little interest in changing the clamp's superficies.
Five.
Standard-sized bars in SCS vs oversized with HIC in terms of use and feel of it, the standard one feels better and lighter cause it IS lighter. Standard-sized bars in SCS are about 100-150g (4-6oz) lighter. Arco and I swapped from HIC to SCS to HIC like 4-5 times at one afternoon before we realised that whips are easier if the front end is even a 100g lighter. It is very little diffirence but you can actually feel that. Since Arco is riding a 5.25 Smirnoff deck (which is basicly known for being the biggest and the heaviest deck on the market today), he actually stated out, that he caught BS heelwhip airs which he did not do with HIC bars that were heavier by default. I could basicly triple whip off pyramids with his setup on SCS/standard and not be able to come close with the oversized/HIC version of his setup, and that's from a bystander point as in I did not own the setup. We haven't tested out yet wether or not when using lighter decks (such as Addicts) would heavier/OS/HIC bars give some advantage on whips on them or not. AGAIN, all this is our opinion, and hence why I got my friend to test it out as well and swap bars as much as we can to realise which is better for his setup. You may say what you like, such as HIC feels better, that's your opinion.
So for the sake of the clients, I always tell them that I've never seen any bars snapped because they used an SCS, hence why I use and promote SCS.
sorry madis i didnt mean to put it like that. haha i've just always thought HIC sucks. and now theres proof that SCS is the way to go. if you run HIC whatever its chill.
DeleteI think another standpoint is that depending on your market people don't want to spend the extra money for SCS. HIC is a lot easier to produce, on top of being cheaper for the customer by $15-30 (depending on which clamp you choose). Since bar sizes never vary, it's all based upon the clamp since most dealers would sell an HIC kit for $10-15. I'm all for SCS as a product, it can be popular depending on the area you market to. But I had nothing but bad experiences with SCS. Just like you said, Madis, opinions, haha. They vary, and I'm glad the people who view this site aren't children that argue over their opinions. We can share our opinions on a mature level.
ReplyDeleteTrue story, haha.
ReplyDeleteThat cost thing may vary from wall to wall, because:
1) scs bars need only one cut and a 50-60$ scs clamp;
2) oversized bars use more material thus by default they are more expensive if the producer hasn't stated otherwise for retailers. Within those oversized bars, HIC bars require a notch which also means extra work, time and money. So by default HIC bars are more expensive than just plain uncut oversized bars, which on he other hand are more expensive than standard sized bars as well. Those extra costs vary (currently i havent calculated out what would the difference be on standard and oversized Wees since i'm not behind my computer, so i might just do that at some point this week), so the diffirence between uncut standard and a notched oversized handlebar can be anything between 1-10$. Then you add the 10-15$ HIC kit. Cherry on the top, you add the 10-30$ double clamp. At the end, the money diffirence depending on the manufacturers can be significant but can also be minimal. And essentially the customer would be paying for bars that are heavier than standard-sized ones and unguaranteed that they wont crack/snap at the notch. Crmo4130 bars MSRP is already in 60-100$ range. Saving a few bucks on the compression is one of the very few good points that HIC has but the cost diffirence might be so minimal that it may force the customer to save a few extra bucks and get an SCS, a guaranteed solution (unless the customer is planning on getting a Grit SCS*, haha)
* Grit SCS - worst SCS, ever. It's a 5-bolt clamp, about 4 inches tall, but the bottom bore is just 1.5" deep which makes the top bore 2.5" deep. I've seen a couple of dumbass riders in Estonia trying to use them on lucky smx forks, they have had to use spacers under the clamp cause you cant cut the fork shorter since there's a machined insert for the starnut to be installed. Also, the clamps top bore diameter is not exactly 1 3/8" (34.9mm), it's something bigger which makes the whole clamp fucked up and even if you put oversized bars in it, the backspace gap of the clamp at the top is smaller than the bottom, showing clearly that the top bore is significantly bigger than they are supposed to be. So if it would be between a Grit and HIC, i'd choose HIC. If it was between a HIC and a Proto/Phnx/Tilt SCS, i'd choose SCS.
You could still cut the fork for the SCS. You just have to install a 7/8 inch starnut. Or grind a 1 inch starnut to be able to install without it breaking on you.
ReplyDeleteIf you used another clamp for HIC, instead of a half knuckle, like a Pro Comp Clamp, that would trim a few ounces off easy also. Half Knuckles weigh almost twice as much as a Pro Comp Clamp. And there's also the HIC Shim option of running a Scooter Zone shim, all in one shim, they're aluminum with no extra cap, they are a bit lighter than a chromoly shim with cap. So there's a couple ways of lightening the weight for HIC. But yeah, if I was to run SCS, I would run the Phoenix Slim Baby SCS. Just because they're so much lighter than any other SCS, and they look cleaner.
And yeah, Grit is horrible all round. The bar size is in between standard and oversized. Same thing for Fuzion and Shaun White Scooters. All three of those brands are manufactured at the same factory in China, just rebranded.